In The Middle Of It
We’re all living stories that aren’t finished yet, and this podcast picks up right in the middle of some really interesting journeys. Whether it’s navigating adulthood, the Christian life, marriage, a music career, grief, healing, or parenting, this podcast hosts conversations for everyone to find themselves a part of. Tune in every other week to find new episodes full of great conversation, laughter, vulnerability, and more!
In The Middle Of It
Hope Darst (Motherhood, Ministry, and Daily Obedience)
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Worship leader and songwriter Hope Darst says she is “in the middle of the middle” as a mom with kids still at home and a future already rushing toward college visits, changing needs, and new questions in marriage and calling. This episode is an honest and fun conversation full of wisdom about what it means to stop keeping score with yourself and start listening for the Holy Spirit in everyday decisions. We also talk about disappointment, grief, and long waits for answers. Hope reminds us that God doesn’t always make the painful thing good, but He does good through it, often by doing an internal work of healing, peace, and hope. Subscribe for more conversations like this, share this with a friend who needs encouragement, and leave a review with the moment that stayed with you!
Follow Hope Darst:
https://www.instagram.com/hopedarst/
Follow Hannah Kerr:
https://www.instagram.com/inthemiddleofit.pod/
https://www.instagram.com/hannahkerr/
Shop the Trendy Bear collection and use promo code INTHEMIDDLE20 to save 20% on your purchase.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Tallying Shame Vs Grace
SPEAKER_00So often we do. We create a tally system. That's right. In our own mind and our own hearts. And we decide, but all of my bad outweighs any good that I ever do. And all of my mistakes outweigh any times that I got it right. But think about your own kids. You don't feel that way. I know. And that is how God feels about us.
Welcome And Meet Hope Darst
SPEAKER_01Hey guys, welcome back to In the Middle of It. I'm Hannah Kerr, your host. I'm so excited for today. We have my friend Hope Darst. Hope is a songwriter, a worship leader, and an artist with like the world's best powerhouse voice ever. You might know her songs like Peace Be Still and Mighty Name of Jesus. I have been such a fan of her since her first single, and I can't wait to talk all about music, motherhood, and ministry today. So please welcome Hope Darst. Oh my gosh. Hello! I'm so happy to be here. I am so thankful that you're here, truly. Thank you for inviting me. Oh my goodness. I just am such a fan of you, and we've met like, you know, a few times, but I just like from afar have been such a fan of you, and I'm so glad that you're here. Thank you so much. You're just in the middle of it with us. This is season two. So what? Congratulations. Thanks. We're really just starting off season two. That's a big deal, though. I know.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that's a big I love podcast. I'm like a podcast junkie. Me too. So, like, congrats. That if people aren't, they don't live in the podcast world, they probably don't realize how big of a deal that is, how much work it goes to putting in a podcast on the back end. It is a lot of work. So congratulations. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01It's been so fun though. I feel like the thing about why I wanted to start this is because I feel like I have so many friends with amazing stories and amazing things that they're walking through. And when we get coffee, I'm like, this would be so helpful for someone to hear if they're going if they're going through the same thing. And I feel like on stage we just get like such a short time to share a story. Or like in interviews, even it's like such a short moment to say what you want to say. But in this format, it's like we can have a whole conversation. Tell the whole story. I know. Like whenever people say long story short, I'm like, no, no, no, tell me the long story. I want to want it long story longer, actually. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm so thankful. I feel the same. I'm I'm very much the same.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I love it. This might be like two hours long. Yeah, we're sorry. We're sorry.
SPEAKER_00This is the longest podcast you've ever had.
SPEAKER_01No, I had Mike Donning yesterday, and that was probably the longest podcast. I do have the gift of chat. We do. The gift of gab. The gift of gab. I love it.
Rapid Fire Loves And Hates
SPEAKER_01Okay, so to start off the podcast, we're gonna do a game called Love It, Hate It in the Middle of It. Okay. So it's just like a rapid fire list of five things. You tell me if you love it, hate it, or feel kind of neutral in the middle in the middle of it. Yes. Okay. Okay. I might have stalked your Instagram to know some of these, but there's also some wild cards. Okay. Number one, pickleball. Love it. You do. Obsessed. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I have a pickle part, a regulation pickleball court on our driveway.
SPEAKER_01No way.
SPEAKER_00Yes. That is utterly obsessed. Okay, I did not know that. That's amazing. I literally bought, okay. Does your family do the hidden pickle ornament investment? We do. I literally bought a pickleball pickle. No. That's incredible. So, yes, I'm whatever is more than love it. That's what I'm at. I'm at.
SPEAKER_01I love that. I love pickleball too. We haven't played in forever. We got like nice rackets or whatever last year for Christmas, and we never used them once. I got pregnant and then just like had a baby and I'm obsessed.
SPEAKER_00I literally said yesterday to my daughter that after tour this year, I think I'm gonna join like a local pickleball cool.
SPEAKER_01No way, hope. That's amazing. But I just love it that much. That's okay, perfect. Love it. What a great beginning. Okay, number two, cooking. Do you like to cook? I do love it.
SPEAKER_00I love it more if I'm cooking for like something special. Yeah. I don't, I'm like in the middle of like everyday monotonous daily. But I do actually really love being in the kitchen. And like when I'm not on tour and I can just be home and like have a home cooked meal for my family every night, I feel like I'm at like peak motherhood. I love that.
SPEAKER_01No, truly, there's nothing that makes me feel like a better mom than when I like make dinner. It's true. What is that? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00It's gotta be something like primal in the must be. But it's like if I can have fresh baked bread, which I can't even bake bread either. So I should say muffins, maybe or something. And a home cooked meal, I feel like I'm like, I've conquered life. My mouth might be trash. I might have a thousand unanswered emails, but that home-cooked meal has made me feel like I'm the most accomplished woman too in the world.
SPEAKER_01It's so funny. I feel like sometimes I get to 5 p.m. and I'm like, oh, I wish mom would make dinner. And then I realize like, like, oh, my mom. Oh girl, my mom. So real. Oh my gosh. So real. Yeah. I do like cooking too, but I feel like I need to like get more into it because right now I just make the same things over and over.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think that that's common. Yeah. I'm just crock pot meals. Yeah, I mean, like I'm making a crock pot meal today. I love making a pot roast. So there you go.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I love a pot roast. Okay, number three, cottage cheese.
SPEAKER_00Okay, this is a weird one.
SPEAKER_01It is a polarizing topic.
SPEAKER_00Was very much dislike until this past year. Really? So I really don't do well with dairy. Okay. And so I just I didn't like cottage cheese as a kid, and then I don't do well with dairy. So I just assume like I can't have it, don't want it. But so I probably hadn't tasted it, no joke, in like 30 years, maybe more. Um, but I'm, you know, I'm in the age where everything is protein, protein, protein, and everyone kept talking about it. And I was like, well, maybe I'll just like try it and see. So that good culture brand. I had that this morning. Yes, they have a lactose-free one. No way. And I am quite obsessed now.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Do you just eat it on its own or do you put it with other things? I cannot eat it on its own.
SPEAKER_00I've done all the things like I've done the viral bowl that has like the um like taco turkey meat or taco ground beef with like the avocado and the sweet potato, and it is pretty the hot honey. Yep. But then, like, I also do, I love like pecans and fresh fruit on it. And like just the tiniest bit of like cinnamon or honey.
SPEAKER_01I thought it was the most disgusting thing all growing up. And then I saw, I think it was a TikTok that said try putting it in your scrambled eggs. Yeah. It actually is very good. It's so good. I know.
SPEAKER_00Cottage cheese is like, don't sleep on it. I know. You can hide it in things.
SPEAKER_01You can. And you can blend it and it becomes like a creamy.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so I blend it with eggs and make a whole casserole.
SPEAKER_01Oh, like a breakfast casserole because you don't taste it. High protein breakfast casserole. No. Follow up for more recipes. Yeah, follow us. I love it. So yeah, I guess I've moved from the hate it category.
SPEAKER_00Hate it to the middle all the way to the like it now. I love that. That's great.
SPEAKER_01So okay, number four, vocal warmups. Do you love them? Do you hate them? I hate them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I know the worst, right? Can I just be honest? I don't do them. Do you I probably should. I have them. Sheetsi, if you're listening, I'm really sorry. When I'm struggling, I really do. Or if I know I have a lot of singing happening, that I am very, very good and very faithful about like warming up and doing all the things. Yeah. I will be good about it on tour. Yeah. Like in my normal, just everyday life when I have like one-off things, or like when I'm going to like serve at church and lead worship, I'm terrible.
SPEAKER_01Me too. And I think it sneaks up on you because leading at church, you're like, oh, it's just like one thing. But no, it's like more singing than you probably even do on tour.
SPEAKER_00I actually think you sing probably less skillfully when you're at church. Because you do kind of just like mentally go, like, oh, this isn't like as it's not like that it's required of me. Yeah. Totally. Actually, you're singing harder and longer. It's so true. I know. So I'm terrible. I'm the worst. So I guess I'm a I'm a don't like it.
SPEAKER_01I'm a don't like it. That was so sweet. She's like, I can't say I hate it. Okay. I just don't like it.
SPEAKER_00I just don't.
SPEAKER_01Okay, last one is chat GPT.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I'm gonna go with I'm in the middle. Yeah. Okay, because I will say it's very nice. Like when you're like very quickly, like just like, yes. Chat GPT. Like, I don't know. Tell me, when was Brad Pitt born? I don't know. Like you're just like the most random fact in the world. I need to know right now. I need to know. Like, how old is Katie? He's 62. I just, I literally just asked Chat GBT to do. And I'm like, Brad, you look great for 62. Like, well done, sir. Brad if you're listening. Yeah, Brad if you're listening. You know, Chat GBT, does Brad Pitt like cottage cheese? Like, I'm loving it. Chat GBT might know. You know, it might. Or like, I remember, like, you know, just like random things that your kids ask you. Yes. It's actually kind of awesome. Yeah. Like the encyclopedia part of it, the wiki part of it. But the like taking over our jobs. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm a little scared about that. I know. And the part that's just a mystery.
SPEAKER_00The part is that's like, this is smarter than I will ever be. Yeah. This makes me think of every sci-fi movie where eventually it all turns on us. I know. And still like us.
SPEAKER_01I'm always saying please and thank you, ChatGBT, because just in case, I want him to remember that I'm more polite. Okay. If something happens, like, don't come for me. Don't come for me. I'm Hannah. Remember me.
SPEAKER_00I'm so nice to you. I like that. I like that theory. I'm gonna adopt that. And then it's okay at the end of every question. Please and thank you.
SPEAKER_01But you know what's funny is you can't just say thank you and then the conversation is over. It's always like, you're welcome. And if you need anything else, I'd be happy to provide you with a five-plan workout.
SPEAKER_00I know and I'll I will say the most amazing feature that I have had from it is planning like itineraries.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00So my family, my brother lives in London. He's lived there for a very long time, and we were visiting him last year.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's so fun.
SPEAKER_00And I'd never been to the Cotwalds, and there was like certain places that we'd never been. And so I literally was like, Chat GPT, I'm gonna be in London this amount of days. I want to go to the Cotswolds for two to three days. Wow. Can you create an entire itinerary for me? And did you start here? And I did it. We did it to a T and it was incredible. So from that perspective, that's great. Was such a great like resource. So, you know, I guess like all things. Yeah, I there's gonna be good or bad.
SPEAKER_01In the in the middle of it, it's a good answer for Chat GPT. I feel like Chat GPT has kind of helped Jason and I parent Owen because I'm just like, how what do I do? You know, I'm like, is my baby supposed to eat seven ounces of milk at a time? Because that feels like too much, you know?
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's crazy because my brother, he I was just sharing with you, your he's had a new baby and they're like just a couple weeks apart from your sweet Owen. Yeah. And it's funny, they were here for the holidays. And I did notice, yeah, they were asking Chat GBT things, and I kept thinking, and I was like, man, that would have been incredible when I was having babies. I didn't know it didn't exist then.
SPEAKER_01I asked GPT, Chat GBT, I saw like a thing on Instagram that was like, ask ChatGBT based on what you ask it, what you should work on for 2026, like on yourself, which was so scary. I was like, I don't know if I should do this. I don't know if I want to ask it. But I did ask, and ChatGBT said that I ask it too many questions that I already know the answer to. It said, you need to trust your own intuition because I can tell that you already know the answer, but you're asking me anyways, and you shouldn't. For confirmation. Yeah. So that's scary that it figured you out. I showed it to my husband. I was like, this is actually kind of weird that it like just got me like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That would feel too, I feel like I would be freaked out by that. I I should ask ask it what it should do because I already know what I should work on. Right. Time management in 2026. Me too. I'd be so curious if it like already knew about me. Me too. Time management is. My family lets me know. So they are my personal chat, GPT. They're my real chat. I love that. Your real chat work on time management.
SPEAKER_01Chat, am I cooked? Oh, that's amazing. Okay, well, I'm so glad you're here
Life In The Middle Years
SPEAKER_01today. The point of this podcast is really just talking to people when they're in the middle of whatever it is that they're going through. Um, I feel like as a Christian artist, sometimes I feel pressure to like have my life tied up in a perfect bow and have it all figured out. But the truth is that I just don't. And the more I've been vulnerable and just shared what I'm actually going through, the more I feel like God uses that to minister to people that are listening. And so my question for you today, and you can take it however you want to, is hope, what are you in the middle of right now?
SPEAKER_00I know. I love that question. Uh, your amazing team at, you know, obviously it shared with me that that's what I'm gonna be talking about. It's the title of your podcast if it makes sense. And I really I actually had to settle on it for a second because I was like, what am I in the middle of? And very quickly, I was like, I'm in the middle of the middle. I'm literally middle-aged. Yeah, I'm in the middle season of parenting, like where your kids are still home, but you're already planning for the future of like when they're gonna be out of the home. My oldest, we're already visiting colleges, trying to figure out all of that kind of stuff. I'm in the middle of marriage, I've been married 20 years. Wow. I'm in the middle of my career. Yeah, I'm at like six years, almost seven years in. Yeah. So there's a lot of places where I'm just in the middle of things. Like real life this morning, like we're in the middle of grief. We've lost someone very special to us in this um season of life. And so there's just a lot of life happening around me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Where you've got some years under your belt and I've got some wisdom from the years that I've lived.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But there's a lot of life still ahead. And so you're kind of, at least for myself, I find myself asking a lot of questions like, okay, God, what we've learned up until this point, how do I make decisions here in this season of life that don't lead me to regret later on? I'm past the years of just survival of motherhood and sort of like just trying to get off the ground in certain things. Like we're in the middle of our careers. My husband has several businesses, we're, you know, in the middle of launching a new business. So there's some muscles to the rhythm of my life that I have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But you know, a lot, you know, at the early stage of a lot of those things of marriage, parenting, all that industry, you're not asking some of the questions that I'm asking now. Yeah. Of like, okay, God, as I begin to think about where we want to be in 20 years, what are the things that need, like, what do you have to do today? Yeah in order for that to actually become a reality later on, in order to not just kind of phone it in. Yep. And I find myself asking the Lord, like, is what we're doing right? Is what we're doing best?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and how and how do we how do we like reorient things that maybe I haven't considered reorienting because they're working? Um that I'm also just very aware that I'm comfortable with not having all the answers for the first time. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01I want to get there in my life to be like, I'm actually comfortable just not knowing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I'm not typically that's not my general disposition. Yeah. But I think I'm just I'm at the point where I'm like, but I know that I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like I can't pretend like I know the answer. I don't. I don't know the answer. I know some things that I think can help me get to probably the the right answer, or yeah, or can I have enough wisdom through the Lord and through the Holy Spirit that I trust that they, if my heart posture is bent towards them, they're gonna lead me to the right thing. But I think yeah, I'm just at the point of going, oh yeah, I don't, I don't know everything. Yeah, there's no way I can know everything. And so I do want to lean in to the people around me. I I'm comfortable not being the smartest person in the room. I'm comf I never was to begin with. But I mean I'm just more comfortable with it. I'm comfortable with not having every answer. I'm comfortable with not always knowing what is best. And that's taken a long time to get there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I think it is important in order for me to actually go forward with my life the way that I hope.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I feel like when we're in the middle, sometimes I feel like I'm so focused on where am I going? Like, what's the end goal of this season that I'm in? But I think it is just a beautiful perspective to be like, God, what are you doing right now in this moment? And how can I reorient myself to be more in step with you here instead of just being like, once I get to this point, God, I'm gonna be so in step with you and know all the answers. And it's like, no, I actually just need you right here to speak to me and to trust you more.
SPEAKER_03Totally.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I think the the times when I've been the most in the middle, it's like I my trust in God grows so much more because I don't know, I know where I've been, but I don't know where it's gonna end up. And just that trust. I think that only comes with experience with God too. Like you're saying in marriage, in motherhood, and career, like just the experience of walking with the Lord. You can only have the trust and the confidence in Him after time spent with Him, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um and navigating lots of different things through life. You know, like when I say like thinking about the future, you know, my daughter is going, she'll be going to college.
SPEAKER_01I can't believe that you're old enough to
Choosing Now To Avoid Regret
SPEAKER_01have a daughter going to college.
SPEAKER_00No, it's happening. She'll be a senior in the fall, so you already have to like do like all the college prep their the end of their junior year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And like it forces me to make decisions based on the fact that I go, Well, I I can't get back her senior year. I can't get back the moments. And that forces a decision to say, well, then I I will have to make sure that my work schedule in the fall and in the spring of 2027 is flexible. That it's I've made space for what I know I want to be able to do and show up and be present in because when I look down the road in five years, I will regret if I haven't.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Or I think sometimes when I look back to when I was younger, I would have been so caught up in maybe the the hope of an opportunity or the potential of a really great opportunity that I would have valued it more than probably I should have. Yeah. Where in this season I'm able to go like, but those things are so temporary. Those things don't really really, really, really matter in the end. And what does matter is how I navigate this last pocket of time where I have, you know, unlimited amount of time with her, right? That isn't gonna be forever.
SPEAKER_01No, and that's so crazy.
SPEAKER_00And so I think it that's the beauty of being in the middle of life in the middle of a lot of stages, is that you see where you've made mistakes. You're so aware of what you've done wrong in the past. And so there's a bit of awareness to say, well, how do I do that differently then? Yeah. It's not a it's not enough to be just aware. It's actually, you know, faith without action is actually dead. Yeah. And so it's not enough to just know and have the knowledge of something. I actually have to put something into practice. I actually have to physically make the choice to do something differently in order to actually step into the things that I think God is asking me to do. Same, same with my career, yeah, you know, same with marriage. Like, you know, I find myself we're 20 years in. That's wild. It's crazy. I don't feel old enough to have been married 20 years.
SPEAKER_01You got married when you were like 10. I do, obviously.
SPEAKER_00But you know, I find myself going, okay, how do I how do I serve my husband better than I have before?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so like even recently, just asking him, like, how can I love you well?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_00This week. Yeah. Like, what does that look like? Yeah. It might literally mean like for him this morning, it was please do not put these receipts in a crumpled mess.
SPEAKER_01Just practically, just a little more organized on the receipts.
SPEAKER_00Like, I know that seems silly, but like I think my younger self would not at the beginning of our marriage, I wasn't asking those questions. You know, and so it's like in this season, I think I find myself reevaluating so many things, not from a place of failure, right? But from a place of if I want if I want to be obedient to the things that I feel like the Holy Spirit is whispering to my heart in this season, then I have to actually kind of act on those things in order for the years ahead to look back and go, there's fruit from that obedience. Yeah. And not just being like, it's all fine, that's all great. Yeah. Like not thinking that you've arrived somewhere. Cause I haven't. I haven't arrived in parenthood. I haven't arrived in motherhood. I haven't arrived in my career. There is no arrival. I think the greatest thing that you get to is just being comfortable and present in the season that you're in, yeah, and really listening to the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, an example of that would be, you know, a couple years ago when I was signing my record deal, I felt like the Holy Spirit in that season just said, you know, when you're negotiating your deal, ride in there that your third option could be a live worship album. Wasn't even something I was planning on doing at the time. I just felt like the Holy Spirit prompted me to do that. Fast forward four years, and I'm praying and I'm seeking the Lord, and I feel like the Lord starts to say to do a live worship record. I'm not even thinking about like my contract at the time or any of that kind of stuff. That's wild. But that's when mighty name of Jesus is written. Like all of these things, and you start to go like it matters. It matters that in every season, I'm listening to what the Holy Spirit is saying because there's a future season that's really dependent on upon your right now obedience.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's good. That's really good.
SPEAKER_00And I think oftentimes we don't think about it like that. Yeah, right? Like we're just caught up in the right now, and we're not always attaching, like my right now obedience is a seed of faith for the future season that God actually wants to do something in. And so I think that's one of the I think that that's probably one of the best places that you can get is when you start to understand like my right now, it does have an impact on the future. Yeah. And so I want to be a really good steward of what I'm in the middle of right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because eventually this middle will be the beginning of something else and the end of something else.
SPEAKER_01That's so true.
SPEAKER_00And not getting caught up in just, you know, only thinking about right now and how it feels right now.
SPEAKER_01Um I love your perspective too. I just it's such a humble perspective to say I don't have it all figured out. Cause I like I'm sitting here, I have a five-month-old, I'm like, man, by the time he's going to college, I'm just gonna be like, I'm gonna know it's all you know, I'm gonna know it all. But the fact that you're like, there's always something to learn, and there's always like having an ear to the Holy Spirit and being like, okay, what do I need to learn in this season right now? That's a really beautiful perspective. Yeah. Um, and even asking your husband, like, how can I love you today after 20 years? Sometimes I think like, you know, I've known Jason now for 10 years, and I'm like, there's always more to learn about him. And that's what wows me in marriage is that even though I know him better than I know anyone else, right? There's still more to learn. And as you grow and you know, yeah, change. You you fall in love with different people, different versions of the same person. You do. Um, and I've just, yeah, that just is inspirational to me. Well, your world changes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Your family dynamic changes, your work dynamic changes, right? Your the seasons of kids, like what my kids needed from me when they were five months old, yeah, and what they need from me when they're 15 and on the 17, it's different.
Wear The Right Season
SPEAKER_00And so one of the things that uh many, many, many years ago, I remember the Lord just kind of dropping this thing in my spirit. Like one day I'm just like kind of talking with the Lord, and I felt like the Lord said, Why are you wearing winter and spring? I was like, What do you mean, Lord?
SPEAKER_01You're like, Do I need to change my closet?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, kind of. And he was like, Well, are you are you feeling a little uncomfortable, a little hot? Are you like, and I was like, I am, and I knew there were some things that I were on my plate in that season that the Lord had asked me to set aside.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But they were such good things, like they weren't, it wasn't anything bad. It was things that I had committed to and they were taking time and like they required my energy. But I could sense about three months prior to that that the Lord had been like, you need to let that go for a season. Yeah. But I was like doubting it and I wasn't sure. And I was like, oh, but I God, but I I want you to stretch my capacity. Like I don't want to be someone that's always shrinking back just because things are hard or feel full or whatever. And and so I was really conflicted, and I'm, but I hear the Lord say this. And he goes, if you wear the wrong season into the next season, it it will ultimately cause discomfort, yeah, it will cause frustration. And that always is where you get really vulnerable for places of offense, bitterness, unforgiveness, all disappointment, all those kinds of things. Yeah. And I was like, okay, Lord. And then as clear as day, and the Lord was like, and there's oh seasons come quickly. He's like, they're always changing. Right. Right? Like some seasons of our life feel really, really long. But I knew what the Lord was talking about was of a more internal season with him. And that he was like, I want you to constantly be asking me what season we're in. Wow. Yeah. And it's funny, the the girls were little. They they would have only been that's my baby guy.
SPEAKER_01Sorry.
SPEAKER_00Sweet Owen. It's perfect. We're talking about motherhood. Um, I think they were probably around like five, six, six, seven. It would have been like right in that. And I kid you not, Hannah, I feel like something got set in motion in the spirit that almost every six months of my life since that season, since God spoke that word to me, I have felt the prompting of the Holy Spirit to check back in. Wow. And it would be something simple as like, okay, God, what do we do? How much, how much time do I give to my job here? How much time do I give to the church here? Do you want more? Do you want less? Yeah. Um, do I do I need child care in this season? Or are you asking me to not have child care in this season and stretch my capacity? Yeah. And it has been like a rhythm of just checking in with, and I kid you not, almost every six months, I feel like something shifts. Wow. Something, and so that's become a rhythm of my life, but I think it's made me really comfortable with going. I don't know what's best.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I actually don't. I can I can think I know what's best for my family, but I only know what's best based on right now. God knows what's best based on what's ahead.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And there are things that God will ask you to put in place or let go of or change in the like the literal operations of your life. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. That in the moment might seem like that feels kind of unnecessary, or that feels like that feels like a backward step, God. Or that feels like that feels like way too much of a leap.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But God's going, yeah, but you don't know what's at the head. You don't know what's ahead because you're still in the middle. Right. You're still in the middle of right now. Yeah. You don't know what's up ahead. And so I need you to trust me that if I'm saying, like, take off your winter coat and get ready for spring, there's a reason. Or if I'm saying put that coat back on, there's a reason. And so that has kind of been like my rhythm of checking in with the Holy Spirit. That is really faithful. Like, funny enough, an example of that would be last year, around this time, um, I had an assistant and she was just helping me with all the things business life, carpool, amazing. Shout out to Callie. I love you. Um, and it was in March, and I was like, clear as day, Holy Spirit is just like, I need you to prepare to be more hands-on in mothering in this season. And I knew like, I knew that meant like, I want you doing the carpool, I want you doing that, da da da da.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I was like, okay, okay, Lord, like we're I'm used to this. Like when you tell me, and I kid you not, three weeks later, Callie comes to me and says, I've had this opportunity to come up out of nowhere that I've been dreaming about for a year. I cannot believe that I'm like gonna put my but she's like, I'm um, I feel like the Lord is asking me to move to California. And I was like, Yeah, he absolutely is. God has already prepared my heart for like this change.
SPEAKER_01And if you weren't listening, I feel like you wouldn't have heard that. That's right.
SPEAKER_00I could have been like, yeah, not even upset with her, right? But I might not have been as supportive, or I might have not been able to confirm for her what the Lord was saying. God already told me this. Yeah. God already prepared my heart. This is absolutely in line. And she was like, I needed that confirmation from you to know that I have like you have a sense from the Lord that this is right. She goes, matters to me. It's like, it's so much more than just us. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, another example would be this past year, it didn't have many dates in the fall. And I was really bummed. Like in the spring of last year, I was just like, I want to play shows. I want to play shows. I think people like these songs. I think people do like the songs of my brain. Yeah. And it was like five years in. I've not really done very much touring. And that's that's been purposeful because I've been mothering. But it was like the first season that I had like ahead of time, because anybody, if you don't know in the touring world, you're almost like a year ahead. Oh, yeah. And so like a year ahead, I had been like, okay, team, like I'm ready to go. And then it was just like crickets. And I remember like we were like at the beginning of the summer, it was kind of end of school year, May, beginning of summer. And I was just like, I was just having, you know, like a little bit of a like, oh board, throwing yourself a pity party. I throw myself a pity party. But simultaneously, my youngest daughter has been in cheer, like for years, and had been asking to join a competition cheer team for years, and I kept saying no. And I was like, it's not practical. Your dad travels, I travel. Like, I do not want to sign you up for something, and then as parents, we're never present. Right. I was like, that feels like the worst thing that I could do. So for years I had kept saying no and kept saying no and kept saying no. And it's like May June, and I she comes to me again and she says it, and I feel like the Lord says, You are preventing her from doing something out of your own fear that you won't be there enough. And he was like, But you're getting in the way. Like, I I actually like this is part of like her storyline. Yeah, you're getting in the way of it. Wow. And a couple weeks later, she ends up coming to me and says, I want to try out for competition. Cheer. She tries out, she makes the tea. Okay. And I was able to be at every single cheer competition she had this past fall. That is so. I could cry. Why? I literally, I was getting read. Like, I cry about it because God knew my heart's desire was to be present as a mom and to not have to miss those things. Right. And so while I'm sitting over here having a pity party, I don't have, you know, whatever on my in my career happening, God's like, yeah, but I'm honoring the deeper desire of your heart.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm honoring the thing that I know even underneath all of that matters more to you. Yeah. And so even though it feels like a little bit of a loss right now, you don't understand the win that I've prepared for you up ahead.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so it's all those little things along the way of really if I could tell anyone anything, no matter what stage you're at, if you're at the beginning of something, you're in the middle of something, or you're at the end of something, which means there's a new beginning ahead. If you will train your heart and your ear to the voice of the Holy Spirit, he will be so faithful to give you the things that you need and to give you the rhythms and to give you the systems and to give you the decisions that you need to make in every single season.
Holy Spirit As A Lifeline
SPEAKER_00Yeah. He has been my lifeline. Like I remember I was like that neurotic first mom, you know, reading every book. That's me. All the kinds of things. And I remember finally my husband, like one night, he was like, I'm throwing all these books in the trash. He was like, You're getting crazy. And I did. I felt like the Holy Spirit said, I am the greatest guidebook for your life.
SPEAKER_01I'm the greatest resource. The greatest resource. I'm a father. Hello. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No one knows you better. No one knows your kid better. Like we picked you guys to be together. There's no book that's ever going to know the two of you better than I know the two of you. And while they can be helpful, they you aren't made in the image of that book.
SPEAKER_01So true.
SPEAKER_00You're made in the image of me. And there are things about you that that book is never going to know. It's never going to understand.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And what it can do when you're always looking to another resource, what it does is it can stunt your ability to trust the voice of God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You doubt it, you question it, da da da. But I mean, you know, that thing about mother's intuition, yeah. All that really means is mom who's listening to the Holy Spirit. It's so true. Actually, what that means. And so it's it's working that muscle and being sensitive to it and learning like you were saying about Chat GBT.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, I think Chat GBT might have been telling me to trust the Lord.
SPEAKER_00I think it was telling you to trust the Lord. I think it was calling you out.
SPEAKER_01I did. I really think that. Like I'm sitting here listening to you and I'm like, yeah, I think that I needed to hear that today because I'm like, I need to trust the Lord that He knows me and He knows Owen better than I even realize. And like And He will bring the right people.
SPEAKER_00There have been seasons that I've gone to the right friend or the right doctor or picked up the right book or the right thing came in the moment. And it's confirming what you're already feeling in your spirit. Right. It's it's going, oh, yeah, yeah. That feels like that's the Lord. Yeah. Like that, I can my my spirit and my soul resonate with that on a much deeper level than just like my panic and my fear. You know what I mean? Um, and so I think that those are things that if you don't harness that and you don't work that muscle, um, you find yourself always in feel feelings of failure, feelings of fear, feelings of worry, anxiety. Like there's no antidote to it. There's no right, you're just constantly in a state of panic, uh, whether that's external or just internal. Yeah. Um, and so I think that that has kind of become the thing that has been the antidote for me. Because that is my natural bent is to worry and be fearful and make decisions out of my all of those feelings. Yep. Um, but the counterbalance to that has been I don't know what's best. So Holy Spirit, what is best here? Yeah. And and tell me be my be my trusted like tour guide through this journey. Yeah. Because you know what's ahead.
SPEAKER_01There's such a comfort in that too. Even like in in seasons of disappointment, like, oh, I wish I had more shows, or I wish this opportunity had worked out and it didn't. It is so true in my life as I look back that once I get to that time when the thing I prepared fell through, I'm like, oh, it never could have worked out. Never, it was not meant to be. I mean, even like last year, I I went through a miscarriage and I was so confused. Yeah, I was so confused at why God let me walk through that. And when I got pregnant with Owen, it was just like the perfect timing and the perfect season. Like I found out I was pregnant on my last tour of the year, and then I didn't have any plans for the first half of the year. And I was sick and pregnant, and I couldn't have done it anyway. And the Lord went before me, like even in the deepest grief that I've experienced in my life. He redeemed so much of that, but also was just preparing a different journey that I couldn't have known.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And the more I walk with God, the more I'm like, I just have to trust him. When something falls through, when I'm disappointed, when I feel like, Lord, I thought that I was supposed to do this and that didn't work out. I always know that he has a better plan. Yeah. Um, and I feel like that is what you're saying. You've just done your whole motherhood journey, really, is just listening to him in the season that you're in and not just holding tight to one word and being like, this is what I'm gonna hold on to for the next 20 years. Right. It's like, no, I'm gonna re-evaluate every six months or whatever it is.
SPEAKER_00It's a constant picking up and letting go, picking up and letting go. Yeah. Otherwise, you do, you end up living outside of the rhythm that God is asking you to live in. And I I love that scripture in Matthew 11, um, 28 through 38, where it talks about the unforced rhythms of grace. Like that if we stay near to the Lord, he will literally give us a grace so that the rhythms don't feel forced. And what we can do oftentimes when we're not near to the Father and near to the word of God and the and listening to the Holy Spirit, we end up forcing a rhythm or forcing a desire or forcing a fear to become the compass of how we're navigating through things or the lens that we're looking through everything at. And that rarely aligns us with the heart of the Father.
Finding Good Inside Hard Things
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, I think a couple of years ago when I was, um, this was several years ago, before I signed my record deal, and I was kind of uh in that weird season of like writing a ton of songs, um, but not really knowing like what I wanted the future to look like and kind of asking the Lord. And during that season, I walked through some really like big disappointments that I was struggling to navigate. And I remember just asking the Lord, I was like, I don't know what you're doing. Like, I really don't, I truly do not understand what you're doing here, but I know that your nature is that you work all things for good. And I'm struggling to understand the heart of that scripture. I'm struggling to understand how this thing that is not good, how could it ever be good? And I remember feeling like the Lord said, I didn't promise that I would make that thing good. I promised that I would do good out of those circumstances. And so often the good that he wants to do is an internal good. It's something in my heart where God's going, I want to take that disappointment, I want to take that grief, I want to take that tragedy, I want to take that hurt, and I want to take it to a place where I become your healer, I become your provider, I become your value system, I become your way, your truth, your life, your hope, your peace, your joy. And that is the ultimate good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That is the actual good that we were designed for. And it really changed how I look at seasons when I'm in something really painful or really difficult. And my prayer has been God, give me eyes to see the good that you have planted right here.
SPEAKER_01That's so good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Because it's not good. It doesn't mean I have to look at the circumstance differently. Right. I it's okay to name the circumstance as just exactly what it is. Yes. Loss, pain, you know, someone betraying you. Like you're not, like, no one's trying to put a silver blanket on this. Right. That does not do you any good. But if you can say, God, give me eyes to see how you have planted goodness here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It is it is always, he has been so faithful to somehow give me a perspective that I know is otherworldly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because in my human flesh, I'm not gonna see the good. I'm not gonna feel the good. I'm not gonna want the good. But there's never been a season that I haven't come out of that when that's been my posture. Yeah. That I haven't been able to go like, I see where God's hand was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that's a gift in the middle of suffering or in the middle of grief to say, God, I see what you're doing here, or show me what you're doing. Show me, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and not show me how you're gonna make this good.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Because some things just are not gonna be made good.
SPEAKER_01Right. And when someone's in the middle of suffering or grief and you say, like, yeah, but it's gonna be good. No, it's like some things are just not good.
SPEAKER_00That's the thing. Some things never actually become good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I have things in my life. I said at the beginning of this podcast, like we're walking through the loss of a friend today, and that's not gonna be made good. Right. We can't make that good in earth. Like that loss is that loss. Yeah, and our worlds are gonna have a hole in it because of it. But God can still be good and do good and being our peace and our comforter, being our hope, bringing places of healing to our hearts as we navigate this because you can also walk through this with none of that.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00There's lost, somebody else many times over is losing someone that they love today, and they do not have the hope and the resource of the goodness of God in their immediate perspective. And so we pray that God becomes that for them and that he and that when he shows up, they can see it and experience it and feel it. But for those of us that know God, we know Jesus Christ, we have immediate access to the goodness of his nature and the goodness of who he is, the great comforter, but the great Prince of Peace, the great anchor of hope, the great savior, the great rescuer, the great healer at our at our, you know, our grab, our arsenal. It's there at all times. And so sometimes that is that is the good that we hold on to in the middle.
SPEAKER_01Yep. That's
Parenting Reveals The Father’s Heart
SPEAKER_01so good. Hope I love it so much. I was thinking about your daughters and just the season that you're in, and I wanted to ask you what it's like to watch them find what they're passionate about and then support them in those passions.
SPEAKER_00Greater than any accomplishment I've ever had in my entire life.
SPEAKER_01Really? It is the wildest thing. I was not prepared. It's just so I feel like it's such a sweet thing to think like someday Owen is gonna have things he wants to do. And I can't wait. Like when I when I see parents like have the iPad, like recording their kid, you know, we have the kids' choir at church and they like have the iPad, I'm like, every kid's doing the same thing. What are they doing? And now that I'm a mom, I'm like, oh, I totally get it. Like, I'm gonna be insufferable when Owen does something.
SPEAKER_00My daughter like won, they won this like cheer competition um in J in December, and they're now going to nationals. Like they scored and uh I have never screamed or cheered or been so excited of a tear mom in my entire life. And it was like, I did not know this feeling. Yeah, like it is the craziest thing. Like, you know, people say that statement of like you want your kids to go further than you do. And it is so true. Like, I love it. It is wild to watch them do anything or to come into their own. Like my my oldest daughter um has had been saying since she was 10 that she wanted to go into some kind of a nursing field. Yeah. And here we are, she's almost 17. She's still like it's the passion of her heart. So cool. Um, and to watch us now like getting ready to like take steps and make decisions to allow that path to be available to her. Yeah, it is like I keep saying my husband, like I will burst into tears because I'm like equal parts sad and I'm equal parts like I could not be more excited to watch her future unfold. And oh yeah. She has such a deep relationship with the Lord and she like started leading worship this past year. And it is, I will say, it is. There is nothing, I mean it, there's nothing that I've accomplished in my own life. It feels like it is at the bottom of the barrel now compared to watching what my kids are doing and watching them fall in love with Jesus and watching, you know, things like a tear cup, which seems so insignificant.
SPEAKER_01No, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_00But it's also given me the craziest like understanding of my parents' feelings towards and then not to be like cheesy or make it over-spiritual, but honestly, the father's heart towards his kids. Like that feeling that we are getting as natural parents is given to us by him. It's so true. We are unable to have that feeling if that's not how God the Father feels about us. And so I'm just like, wow, I don't think I really thought about how proud God feels about his kids, like through that lens, until I started to feel it in the last couple of years with my girls. That's such a gift. And I'm like, oh, like that's crazy that you could feel that way about me. That because for so many of my years I've dealt with so much like wrestling through shame. Yeah, me too. And feeling like a failure. And even though I I've done like a lot of work and I feel like God has really set me free from wearing that like a permanent necklace around my neck. This part of parenting actually really was kind of like a really helpful, like kind of part of that process. Yeah. Because I was like, I look at my kids and when they do something amazing, I'm not deciding my reaction to that thing based on how many times I think they have failed. That's so true.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like I literally only see them through the lens of I could not be more proud of you. I love that so much. And it re- it's kind of reoriented, like just rewires you pathways. You really don't like for those of us that are constantly in pursuit of like being in right relationship with you, like you don't keep record of wrong. And like when I do something that pleases your heart, you aren't tallying it up against all the things that didn't please your heart.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You're just so true.
SPEAKER_00Present in that I'm so proud of what you're doing right now that pleases me. Yeah. Um, and maybe people can take that if they're listening. Cause I think that's so often we do. We create a tally system in our own mind and our own hearts, and we decide, but all of my bad outweighs any good that I ever do, and all of my mistakes outweigh any times that I got it right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But think about your own kids. You don't feel that way. I know. And that is how God feels about us.
SPEAKER_01I feel like when I was pregnant with Owen, I had this light bulb moment where I realized how much I loved him already. Yes. And it hit me that Owen's never done anything for me. He's never like really pleased me in any way as far as like done great at any little smile here or there. He's never done great on a test or like, you know, scored a touchdown. But I love him so much just because he's mine. Yes. Like just for being who he is, I love him.
SPEAKER_00His existence alone brings you great joy.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And I had this moment where I thought that's how God feels about me. And I couldn't believe that for so long. I've tried to earn the love of God. I've tried to tell myself, like, if I just do this thing, if I just get it right for six months, he's gonna love me more. And it's like, that's just not how the love of God works. And I feel so much more freedom to just let God love me now that I have loved my child. And I I don't know. I think there's so many more lessons of parenthood to come for me, obviously. But just to hear you say that is, I think, really healing for for me to hear, but also just people listening to know like the father is not waiting for you to mess up and to say, I told you so. Yeah. Or like he's he's celebrating all the things that you're doing and he sees you trying and he's cheering you on. And I love that image of God so much.
SPEAKER_00You know, the thing is, God already knew we were gonna mess up. Yeah, right. That's why he had a rascal plan of Jesus. Exactly. So it's funny that we can live in a mindset of going, oh, I can't mess up. Or if I didn't, it's like he already knew he was already fully aware of how much you and I were gonna get wrong. Yep. That is why he sent Jesus. Right. His great love was like, okay, I can see ahead. I know they're not gonna get this right. So I'm gonna figure out a way to make it right. Yeah. Because I don't ever want them to not have full access to me again. Right. And I think as I've allowed this picture with parenting to really reshape a lot of my understanding of who God is, I think it's led me to what I was talking about earlier of being more comfortable with not having to know everything.
Repentance That Breaks Shame Cycles
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. Because I think so much of that was um rooted in perfectionism that was really just rooted in I'm just trying to please God. I'm just trying to earn my way into good standing with God. If I can get it all right, then God will love me and everything will be okay and everything will work out. And that's just not how it works. And I think the more I've allowed myself to see myself through God's eyes, the way that I see my girls, it has really kind of crumbled some of those perfectionist tendencies in me and been able to be more okay with like, yeah, I I get a lot wrong. But what I can say is that I've tried to keep my heart really tender towards being someone who's repentant. Because I think that that is the cycle of like when God can show you where you've gotten off, but your your heart is tender towards like, okay, God, so I want to be in right standing with you. So I I'm okay with saying I'm sorry. I'm actually okay with being like, yep, that part is not working, that part of me isn't right. And so I invite you in once again. Like, how do we how do we get back to a place where I'm more in line with your heart and more in line with your spirit? And that the more you practice that, do you know the less sting it has?
SPEAKER_01It's so true. Like living in a place of repentance with someone that you know just loves you and has open arms for you. It's so much better than picturing God as this, you know, angry father with crossed arms, like say sorry, you know, and letting it pile up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right, because it it piles up in us. Right. It's not not necessarily, I mean, there's a part of it, it's like I don't want a pile up of things that then makes me paralyzed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00To not actually know where to even start with the Lord. And I think that happens with a lot of people, yeah, because they aren't taught the beauty and the the rhythm of daily um repentance with the Lord. I mean, it's like in it's in the Lord's prayer, yeah. Like, which is meant to be a daily prayer. Lord, forgive me for what I get wrong and help me forgive others for what they get wrong. Yeah. Because that's a seed to me getting it wrong again. Like you feel like there's a there's a little vicious cycle in here that we're trying to break. Yeah. And I think I really, somewhere along the line, by the grace of the Lord and the leading of the Holy Spirit, I adopted that in my daily kind of rhythms of being with the Lord and thinking about the Lord and just being like, man, I know I'm gonna get something wrong today. Yeah. I know that there's something going on in my heart that's not pleasing to you. So like, let's deal with it so that I'm not building up this thing that then makes me retreat to the degree that now we're years in. Yeah, I'm like distant from you, God. I don't want that. That's not my desire. Right. And so, you know, a lot of people are scared of the repentance. I'm sorry. They don't know how to put it in like a daily practice. And like for someone, if you're just listening and you're like, oh, I don't do that, or I didn't ever think about that being a part, like literally just start with the Lord's prayer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Literally, you can pray that every day.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Read it out loud, even if you need to like make it not so old language and you need to like, you know, Lord, I, you know, forgive me for anything that I get wrong today that's not pleasing to you, and help me forgive others that you know might hurt me or whatever that is. Um, it's a great way to start. And you will find that, man, it just makes you feel like there's a constant uh rinse and repeat with the Lord that is just actually really good for the soul.
SPEAKER_01I love that. And so practical too to just start with the Lord's Prayer. I think that's really helpful.
SPEAKER_00Because I do think repentance and confession feel scary if you're heavy and serious, and it can be in certain seasons, but to me, man, it's just become like a normal I love that. I'm not scared of it, I'm not bothered by it, I'm not weighed down by it. I'm oft I'm I'm convicted by it. There's a holy conviction, yeah. But it's become uh just such an integral part, and I think it's part of what keeps your mind and your ears available to hear the Holy Spirit on a daily basis about what's going on and what you need to know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think if we're living in shame and we have all this unrepentant, unconfessed sin, it's like we can't even This is loud. Yes, we can't even hear the voice, the whisper, because all the voices of shame and fear are just so loud. I've experienced that in my life, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Or you literally just numb out to everything.
SPEAKER_01Like it's just it's too much, it's too painful, it's too heavy, and then you can't hear him at all. Right. Yeah, that's so good. Hope oh my goodness. I feel like I could just sit here and talk to you for like hours upon hours, just be like, tell me all your knowledge.
SPEAKER_00I kind of serve a lot of his days. I'll tell you that. I love it.
The Story Behind Mighty Name Of Jesus
SPEAKER_01I do want to hear about Mighty Name of Jesus. I have been so impacted by that song, like just on a personal level. We play that song in our house all the time. I feel like it's given me language and like a prayer to sing over our home, over our family, like over Owen. Now that I'm a mom, I'm like, wow, I songs probably hit you different.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, absolutely, the enemy has no right to come near my family. Like, and you're my family, and I'm speaking this over you. I don't know. It's just it's meant so much to me. So I just wanted to say thank you for that song. And it's just been powerful to see how it's impacted people all over the world. Like crazy. It's crazy. I feel like every time I was scrolling on TikTok, I would see people just like lip syncing to that song, just singing it over their home, their families. And what what has it been like for you to see what God has done with the mighty name of Jesus in the past few years?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's crazy because we're talking about in the middle, and and the reality is I wrote that song in the middle of a very hard journey with my daughter. Um, she had an injury when she was 12 to her ankle that then led to an injury with her knee. And then it just was like this downward spiral. And we were three years in to just endless doctors and therapies and all this kind of stuff. And then she had to have a really pretty evasive surgery. And the surgery went well, but then about six months after the surgery, she developed pain in that knee that we've just not we we can't get to the root of. So she's now almost 17, lives with chronic pain.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_00So many different doctors and MRIs and and just a lot of just unknowns, a lot of nights of going, like, God, no one knows what's wrong, and I don't have answers, and I don't know what to do, and she doesn't know what to do. And you're navigating uh questions, hard questions, like mom, I know God's a healer, but like what if he chooses that like my knee doesn't need to be healed because it's part of my story and it's part of my life and it's part of my dependency on the Lord. And I'm looking at her and I'm going, yeah, I I can't tell you that God is just gonna wrap this all in this perfect little bow. Like we're gonna have to dig much, much deeper into what do we actually believe about God. And it is a it's a wild thing to carry the tension of yes, you are healer, yes, we will believe for healing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we will also love you and worship you and trust you, even if it doesn't come how or when we think it should.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And walking that out. And so for years, these were the scriptures I was praying over my daughter. So these were the scriptures. There's so many scriptures tucked into this song.
SPEAKER_01Which I love.
SPEAKER_00Um, I really should do a post one day. I think that like breaks down all the scriptures that we pulled um for this song because it is just scripture, scripture, scripture, scripture. And that was the the very point of the song. Um, that when we went in to write it, I said, Look, I know what it's like to be in a season where you are in the middle of believing for something and you can't like you don't have answers yet. You don't have an outcome that you want yet. And you just feel weary from like, what do I pray? What do I say? I've already prayed a hundred thousand prayers, it feels like, over this situation, over this kid. And I was like, what if we wrote a song that was that prayer?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That that prayer full of scriptures that I have to like say when I'm battling fear for her, or she's battling fear, or we're just having a hard day, you know. And I'm so grateful to my co-writers that day who I've done a lot of life with, yeah, and had just such a sensitivity to like what that looked like because of their own journeys with different things. And um, so we wrote that song, and I remember just being like in the room that day going, like, man, I don't know if that song will do anything, but I know it's doing something for my mama's heart. And it feels like a song that I could sing around my house over my family. Yeah. And I had no idea. You never know. You don't know, yeah. You have no idea what songs God is gonna use be way beyond your wildest imaginations. Um, but funny enough, that song was a prayer, and I had a prayer tucked in my heart about that song that I just wanted it to be a tool for moms and dads and families walking through hard seasons of unknowns where they're really having to contend for long periods of time with the Lord. I just I wanted it to be a prayer that they could sing without having to think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And to see it become that. So um, I was talking with a friend the other day, and I said the best way I know how to describe it is in all walks of life and all jobs that we do and all things that we're called to, you know, we're called to be obedient to just steward that thing. And I said, the the weird world of songwriting is the stewarding of showing up over and over and over and over and over again. And what you know, there's a hundred songs that you write before writing. Yeah, it's the obedience to keep showing up and stewarding that thing. And I said, when I see it, you know, in people's lives and all over the place, it's to me, it's this tangible evidence of God saying your obedience leads to fruit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't feel I don't feel attached to the song of like in some like it's just more of a like, you didn't have to breathe on that song. You don't have to breathe on any song.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But when you do, God, it reminds me of all the days that I didn't want to show up. Yeah. And all the days that I didn't want to pray, and all the days that I didn't want to lean in for every day that I did, it was leading to you being able to use something that I was planting and stewarding in that season. And only you can use it. I can't do that. There's nothing I am not a good enough songwriter or a good enough singer. None of us are that it can carry the power that only Jesus can. Right. And so, you know, I think that's why we show up as songwriters, is that we're we're stewarding the thing that God has put in our lives as a passion, as a way to communicate the gospel and the goodness of God. And every now and then, every now and then, yeah, God goes, Hey, I want you to see your obedience and your faithfulness mattered.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it's just so cool because it comes from something that you are actually walking through. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like with writing worship music, especially like for the church, you're like, what does everyone in the church need to say? What does everyone in my church want to sing about today? Yeah. But I feel like a lot of times God uses your own circumstance, your own story to help you help them sing something. Yeah. And I just love that. It's just such a powerful song. And you just have the world's best voice. I'm like, the only thing that I complain about when I listen to Hope's music is that I can't sing along and peace be still. When you get to the bridge, I'm like, I just I can barely sing along myself. I have to lower that thing. I have a dance on the road. I'm like the lower harmony for uh over me. Okay, that part of like, I can't sing that. We're we're in that together. I love that. It's so good. Oh, thank you for being here today. Thank you for doing this. You have you are a well of wisdom. And I feel like I could just have like four episodes with just talking.
SPEAKER_00You're so funny.
SPEAKER_01It's so good. Okay, to end
Favorite Albums And Final Blessing
SPEAKER_01the podcast.
SPEAKER_00I'm honored to be here.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's so sweet. To end the podcast, we are going to do it's called the middle moment. It's at the end. I don't know. It doesn't make sense. Um you are going to spin this wheel and has eight topics on it. And then we're gonna talk about whatever it lands on as a fun way to end for like two minutes.
SPEAKER_00Okay, this is fun. I love this.
unknownOkay. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Give her a spin. Oh wait, that's a terrible spin. Okay, we're trying again.
unknownI'm so where's it gonna land?
SPEAKER_01Favorite album. Okay, what is your album? What's your favorite album of all time? Gosh, that's hard. I know it's so hard. Or just a favorite album. My husband hates favorites. He's like, I cannot make favorite albums.
SPEAKER_00I know. I oh gosh, that's gonna be a tough one. Okay. I think probably one of my favorite albums of all time would be. Oh gosh, this one's tough. I'm like, I my brain's going to different places. I know.
SPEAKER_01You can you can say a couple if you have a couple, like maybe your favorite growing up or your favorite recently, whatever.
SPEAKER_00Like, well, my favorite growing up, funny enough, was Mariah Carey Music Box.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Oh my goodness. You're like, love a powerhouse moment.
SPEAKER_00I love the powerhouse, a female vocalist. But I would say probably the album that I've listened to on repeat the most would have been it was a Bethel record back in the day. Um, it was the one where they the loft sessions. Yes. Do you remember? Yes, I do. I probably listened to that record a hundred times, just over and over and over. It was like it, because I think it was one of the first times you were hearing like this new wave of modern worship, but in this more strip-backed, yeah, organic way. And so it was like, wait a second, you've like taken me on this journey to like this beautiful new way that worship can be done, but now you're presenting it in a way that's familiar to like how worship music has sounded in my small tiny church at 200. I know. I love them. And I just I lived with that record for so long.
SPEAKER_01I'm literally gonna listen to that on the way home. Thank you for reminding me. I'm like so good. It's so good.
SPEAKER_00Um I mean, I was obviously like, I loved Hill Song.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you know, the the shout to the Lord record was a really big one. I mean, that that song changed my brain because I'd never heard a female worship leader before, Darlene.
SPEAKER_01I know. I feel like that song changed a lot for a lot of people. It did.
SPEAKER_00I was like, wait, females can lean like that. Because I mean, I don't know, but even like growing up, like the only women that were singing in my church, and no disrespect, because now that I'm getting older, I'm like, yes. But it was like, you know, Barbara. She was 55, she played the organ. She like occasionally sang a song like on Sunday morning. So it was like so out of my like perspective that like a younger woman could lead worship and lead it to where it sounded like I don't mean this in any disrespect, but it sounded more like current modern music. And I was just, you know, someone who wanted to be this path. I wanted to be Mariah Carey, but that was not the path God had for me. And so seeing a female do something that was still like amazing melodies and like that wasn't a hymn blew, blew my mind, opened doors, I think, in my heart and my mind. So cool. That I could not have ever dreamed. And it was really cool years later when I met Darlene.
SPEAKER_01Did you?
SPEAKER_00And I've I've heard that this is something that she says often to certain women when she meets them over the years, if like she feels led by the Lord. I was pregnant and she put her hands on my belly and she just said, the best things in my life happened after marriage and motherhood. And the same will be true for you. Wow, and it absolutely has been true.
SPEAKER_01That is amazing.
SPEAKER_00So it's wild that Darlene, Darlene, if you ever see this podcast, I love you so much. God has used you profoundly in my life. Three times God has used her like that in my life. She did the same thing a couple years ago. We were leading worship somewhere, and she had another word for me, and I was just like, Darlene. Darlene, we love you.
SPEAKER_01Shout out to the Lord. Shout to the Lord.
SPEAKER_00Shout out to the Lord. I love it. Thank you, Hope. This is so fun. Thank you. You're the best.
