In The Middle Of It
We’re all living stories that aren’t finished yet, and this podcast picks up right in the middle of some really interesting journeys. Whether it’s navigating adulthood, the Christian life, marriage, a music career, grief, healing, or parenting, this podcast hosts conversations for everyone to find themselves a part of. Tune in every other week to find new episodes full of great conversation, laughter, vulnerability, and more!
In The Middle Of It
Mary Beth and Steven Curtis Chapman (40 Years of Marriage and Still Here)
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Everyone loves a tidy marriage story until they realize it does not exist. I get to sit down with Steven Curtis Chapman and Mary Beth Chapman to talk about what actually holds a relationship together after decades of change, conflict, and unfinished growth and why their new book, Still Here, is so different from the typical perfect marriage playbook. Mary Beth and Steven talk candidly about learning to loosen their grip, “losing to win,” and choosing to bear with one another in love when disappointment, frustration, or misunderstanding shows up. This conversation is full of laughs, real stories, and truth to carry with you long after you listen. Make sure to subscribe to the show and download this episode to listen again later!
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Still Here By Grace
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, you gotta surely have it figured out. And we're like, no, we surely don't. Um, and we can tell you a lot of things not to do, but as far as really sharing, you know, the the seven highly effective, you know, habits of, you know, well-married people or the love languages or the whatever. There are plenty of those books and they're great. Yeah. And we flunk at pretty much every one of them when we read them. We're like, well, screw that up. Well, blew that. So it's like, we don't have any business writing a book about that until we realized, well, we are still here, and that's been the grace of God, and we could share that.
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Meet Stephen Curtis And Mary Beth Chapman
SPEAKER_00Hey friends, welcome back to in the middle of it. I'm your host, Hannah Kerr. I am so excited about this episode today. I can't even tell you. This is the episode that wins me the most brownie points with every member of my family, including my parents. Okay. Um, today's podcast guests are Stephen Curtis and Mary Beth Chapman. Stephen Curtis Chapman is the most awarded Christian artist of all time with 60 GMA Dev Awards, 50 number one songs. He's had 10 gold and platinum albums, and he's a member of the Grand Old Robert. He's amazing, okay? And then Mary Beth Chapman is a New York Times bestselling author. She's the co-founder and the chairman of the board for the incredible adoption nonprofit called Show Hope. It's helped over 10,000 kids come home to a loving family. And together they have been married for over 40 years. They have all the kids and grandkids, and they have written a book called Still Here. It's so incredible. We are gonna hear all about it today. So please welcome to the podcast, The Chapmans. Oh, thank you guys so much for doing this. I am so grateful. Like your family's story, your music has been so intertwined in my whole life growing up. Like, truly. Um, my parents' wedding song was I Will Be Here. Like the first song I sang with my brothers was Dive In It, or like just it's just crazy, like the amount of songs of yours that have just carried me through like my whole childhood and my whole life. And so I'm just so grateful to have you here. And yeah, this is gonna be really cool. I'm so excited to talk about your book too. I have just torn through it over the past couple days and been so just refreshed and inspired. And I've been married for six years, and I'm like, man, there's there's so many years to come, and I feel like this is a great blueprint to just like carry with us as we go. So thank you. Yes, thank you very much. I'm just glad you're
Love It Hate It Warm Up
SPEAKER_00here. So we're gonna start off the podcast with a little game. Are you up for a game? It's very quick. The podcast is called In the Middle of It. So this game is called Love It, Hate It, In the Middle of It. I'm gonna read you five things, they're somewhat random. You tell me if you love the thing, hate the thing, or feel in the middle of the thing. Okay, okay. Number one, red lobster. Love it. Love it.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. You like the cheddar biscuits? Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_02That is uh That's a recipe for love. You know that's our first date. That wasn't random.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that was a random way that's like somebody's on to us.
SPEAKER_00So your first date was at Red Lob's. Yes. That is crazy. What a place for love. Yeah, what a great restaurant that is.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what did you get? Do you ever order shrimp and cheddar bit? Shrimp and cheddar bitch. You should be able to do that. That was just the classics. Okay. Number two, college football.
SPEAKER_02Love it.
SPEAKER_00Mary Beth is like, yes, roll time. Yes, roll time.
SPEAKER_01Double love it. Love it. And I and I I love it as well. I am a learn, I have learned to love it.
SPEAKER_02He's a love it minus.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I do. I love I I I like it very strongly. It's no part of it. I disagree.
SPEAKER_04You like it a lot.
SPEAKER_01It's just not that I don't when compared to my wife, who has borderline probably obsession with that, I would say love it, especially when our daughter is cheering on the sidelines.
SPEAKER_00But that's so awesome. Oh, I love it. Did you grow up loving college football, or where did the love come from?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I grew up just in a family that watched a lot of sports. So yeah, never had anybody, you know, playing college football or anything like that. I'm much more of a college football fan than I am professional football, but I like professional football too. But yeah, just um grew up in Ohio, so my family was they were huge Ohio State fans, but um, we're Alabama through and through now.
SPEAKER_00Yep, yeah. I love it. That's so cool. I heard you hope that your sons played football, but they went music instead. Yeah, any sports.
SPEAKER_01Unfortunately, they had my they had my DNA uh too. So they were working with a massive desk of this.
SPEAKER_00There's room for everybody in this world, okay? That's awesome. Okay, number three is long road trips.
SPEAKER_01Hmm. Yeah, pause. Uh let's see, because we've had a lifetime of long road trips, I feel like being on tour. So long road trips.
SPEAKER_02I love long road trips just being if we if yeah, especially if we don't know exactly where we're going or if it's vacation or you know, something like that. Yeah, I love back roads, love, love, yeah, long road trips.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I read about one in your book, yes where you 400 mile now that was attached to garage sales and vintage, you know, thrifting, which I could do that a lot. I could I love that. I love it.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome.
Horses Songwriting And Holy Courage
SPEAKER_00Okay, number four, horses. Love it, hate it in the middle of it.
SPEAKER_02I'm in the middle, but I know what he's gonna say.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know I wrote the song about saddling up your horses. That's what I'm saying. We've got a drill to place. And I know I wrote a horse. I know I wrote a horse in the video. Uh, and that horse and I did not bond well at all, but somehow I survived the day without falling off. At the end of the day, we'll put it this way: the the the what do they call them, paramedics that were there on site the whole day because it was it was the great adventure video. We were in Jackson Hall, Wyoming, and it was like, okay, get on this horse, and then when we say action, you're gonna go run as fast as that horse wants to go across that field. And I was like, okay, I have never done this before. And I just read songs about it. And it was by the end of that day, the paramedics all kind of gathered around and said, Well, we've never seen anybody who should have fallen off a horse more and somehow managed to stay on. So you get a little smiley face for that.
SPEAKER_02But other than that, I don't know if you remember that video uh or you know, remember watching it all, there's pieces of it in like slow motion with the you know the epic riding and in slow motion. But those horses literally had been brought in from winter pasture, so that pasture, so they hadn't been ridden in a long time, so they were a little bit wild to begin with. They weren't super jumping, they weren't super excited about having someone. And and actually, we know all the parts in the slow motion video where he's actually because it looks like he's just big and bad and screaming yeehaw or whatever. He's actually yelling the name of Charmin. He's doing yeah, Charlie, get me off the door. It looked like it looked great, it looks awesome.
SPEAKER_00He's screaming for his life. Oh, that is so funny. Wow. So you you spent your whole career singing saddle up.
SPEAKER_01It's so funny. It is like so funny that out of all of those, you know, it's like, okay, well, that's it. You know, but it just didn't, it it really, you know, it's one of those that like I talk about the song Dive, and you know, that came from a great sermon that Scotty Smith, our pastor, was preaching about this incredible experience he had of fishing and how you had to get in this really deep, kind of scary water to get into the action. And he drew that parallel to God is inviting us into sometimes unsure footing. We've got to be willing to go where he takes us, yeah. Or we can sit on the bank and just kind of watch it happen. And I was like, man, I was so inspired. And I walked out of there and I was like, I'm fishing, I'm going fishing. That just does not sound like the song that's gonna inspire people to want to just let's go, you know. And so it became Dive, and that was the song dive. So I think Great Adventure was probably similar. It was sort of like, man, I'm gonna write, you know, I want to just let's go. God is inviting us on this wild adventure. And that was actually out of a very difficult time and season with that. I wrote that song. And um, but it the you know, people have since the over the years thought, man, did you just grow up loving horses? Where'd that come from? I'm like, no, not so much, but man, I'm John Wayne in my mind. Right.
SPEAKER_00You're like, I'm sorry to the horse community. I'm not part of you, but I respect you so much. Yes, but I respect you so much. Oh man, I love it. Okay, last one is the grand old.
Grand Ole Opry Full Circle
SPEAKER_00Love it, hate it in the middle of it. Love it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Love, love, love, love.
SPEAKER_00Because you're a member of the grand old Opry. That is so cool. It's so awesome. I love that part of the book when you're talking about being totally surprised by the one and only Ricky Skags.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I'm like, Yeah, what the crazy motions. What life are we are we living? You know, we just crazy. We tell a story in the book about when we first met Ricky and Sharon at the at the Grammys and how crazy that was. And we had breakfast. We saw Michael McDonald's. Michael McDonald, he's like making faces at him, and I'm going, you know him? He's like the coolest guy on the planet. And then Ricky's guys introducing us to Michael McDonald and all of that. It's like okay, mind blown. Yeah. So then to think all these years later, he would be the one that would basically invite me to be a member of the Grand Ole Opry and totally surprise me, as we tell in the book, that you know, she almost didn't even come that night because I have gotten into a you know, kind of a routine of playing the Opry, which even to say those words is crazy. Um, growing up such a fan as as I was and still am. So yeah, it's uh it was an amazing night, has continued to be an amazing chapter in our in our story for sure.
SPEAKER_00I loved in that chapter of the book, he said, you know, this is like the most amazing moment and like mountaintop. There's so many amazing things about it, but the sweetest thing was looking at each other and just knowing that you were there in that moment together. Um, like that's what really made it so special was not even like this amazing mountaintop moment, but that you were there together. Yeah. I literally teared up and I could tear up now, just thinking about how sweet that is, and like what a testimony that if you weren't still married, you wouldn't have that moment together.
SPEAKER_02And I'm just yeah, that's and as you're saying that, um, you know, it takes me back to, you know, he he uh started all of this crazy stuff playing at at Opry Land, USA, um, the theme park. And so when in early in our marriage, you were still doing a a couple years out there uh while we were still doing my George Hamburger helper, yeah, trying to make it through the next day. And I can just remember being big and pregnant with Emily laying on the back on the back row at Country Music USA show, just saying every word right along with them.
SPEAKER_01You know, just trains have held a fascination. You probably still say it's trains have held a fascination.
SPEAKER_02So, yes, fast forward, you know, for almost 42 years standing going, What is this life? This is just crazy that we would yeah, be here together to experience such a such a blessing and it's amazing thing.
SPEAKER_01And she was, I mean, uh I think I say this in the book, but I think one of the things that made the opera so sweet is that she was such a champion. Mary Beth really wanted that for me, maybe as much, if not more, than I would have. In fact, I guess she she dreamed it more as a reality. I always thought, well, I have to, you know, I'm not a country music artist as much as I love it. And I started, you know, arguably my career in many ways got started at Opry Land. And I did sing on the Grand Old Opry stage when I was 18. Um, so it was a full circle moment. But um it, you know, I was like, I'm not, you know, they're never gonna induct a probably a Christian music artist into the Opry. And but she just was like, but that's where you started, and it's in you, and you love bluegrass and all of that too. So she was um yeah, she was uh a very she campaigned for that, I think, on my behalf with managers and all like you need to you should see if you can make this happen for him, and so it was such a sweet moment and a special night, and has continued to be a really sweet season of life for me and and just about even the doors that God has opened, you know, that of people that I feel like I've had the opportunity to be involved in their lives and minister to as on the phone with Chris Jansen, who's an opera member and a friend, and and you know, this afternoon, and just you know, talking about what you know how God has kind of used our relationship, and that has kind of been a part of that, which has just been really amazing. And I never would have imagined that.
SPEAKER_02As you might imagine, Steve loves to chat and he loves to just be very he's very loquacious. Yes, like I love that word, anyways. I'm like, now you can be like the pastor of the of the opery, just you know, go from room to room and just chat with people and pray with people, and it's been lovely sweet.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's so cool. You got your name on a plaque on the wall, like craziness, yeah, it's craziness.
How They Wrote Still Here
SPEAKER_00I love it. Well, I want to talk about your new book still here. I guess it came out in March 2026. Um, it just is so good. It's such a beautiful picture of marriage. And I think in the first, you know, chapter or whatever, one of you says, We almost didn't write this book because we thought maybe it would be disappointing for people to hear that our marriage has not been perfect, that we've had hard seasons. But man, it is the opposite. It is so refreshing. I feel like it's so easy when you have a book deal or whatever to write a book about how you figured it all out and here's the five steps to a perfect marriage. And it's it's not that. It's just a collection of stories of your life together. And it's the perfect book to talk about on this podcast because that's what this podcast is all about about being in the middle of life, about figuring it out, not knowing how it's gonna turn out, um, but just trusting God and just living in his grace. So I'm so excited to talk about this book. There's so much goodness. I have so many points. I'm like, we could talk about bearing with one another in love, sanctification, being right. Like there's so many ways to go. Um, but first I want to ask just from like a logistics standpoint, how did you write the book together? Did you talk it out to someone and they recorded it? Did you write a chapter each? Like, how did it work writing this together?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, out of the gate, we were like, hey, so if we're gonna write this book together, we need to not end up divorced when it's over with. That would be goal. That's the goal, goal number one. We need to stay married through the process because we knew we could we could not write the book on what to do, but we could certainly write the book on what not to do, and um, and and the goodness of the Lord and all of it, and raising kids and being very young when we got married, all of the things. But yeah, we um we had an amazing person that worked with us, Lawrence Kimbrough. Um, he did a lot of interviewing with us, and then I would take it and write, and then he would take it and write, and then we would kind of come back together. And so it was kind of a back and forth kind of thing because he was, we would do a lot of it together, and then he'd be on the road, so then he would be doing a lot of the fine-tuning and yeah and all the things, and I would be the one going, That's not how it happened.
SPEAKER_03No, of course the fact checker, fact check checker, or whatever.
SPEAKER_00I love it because it's so conversational. Like, I feel like I can just hear you saying it even without knowing you. I just was like, man, I can just hear you saying, like, okay, well, that's our last Disney reference, or like, okay, and I hope that didn't come off weird. Like, it just I loved it. It was just so, so conversational, so easy to read. Thank you. Um, I'll be gifting it to everyone I know for Christmas, New Year's, all the way. It's so so sweet. It's so sweet. I told my parents actually, um, I was like, this is the perfect book for your, they're gonna be married 40 years next year. Yeah, they're right behind us. You need to read this for your 40th anniversary, and I will be here with their wedding song, and it's it's framed in their room, the lyrics and all the things. So I was like, this is the perfect book for you guys. Um that's amazing. But your marriage has been such a journey, it's been all of the things, it's been amazing and hard, and you guys are so different. Like just reading about your differences. Something that was really interesting to me was I'd never thought about this. That sometimes the thing that attracts you to each other is your differences because you're like, man, I see that in that person, and I don't have that, and I like that about that. You really like it. But then as you're married, that same thing that attracted you to that person is the thing that bothers you because it is different than you. Um, can you talk about just navigating differences in marriage and what that has looked like for you guys?
When Differences Become The Work
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that interesting though? Yeah, the very things that really, you know, woo you in and and cause you to fall in love with the person, all the things it's like I I just really enjoy that you're so, you know, you know, just artistic and whimsical and poetic. And you know, I'm like, buy the book and and you know, and just need a plan and you know, all the things. And then those are the very things that you're married for a little while, and it's like, okay, why are you not like me now? Yeah, I need you. I don't need you enough. I mean, I need you to love the calendar. I need you to, you know, I need you to, you know, and and um and so it had it's been a challenge, it's still a challenge. Um, it's not a surprise that anybody listening that knows us knows if if you know Stephen Mary Beth, you know that it's continued to be a challenge of how to uh you know, how to work it out. But um, you know, just you know, it as corny as it sounds, uh being married 40 almost 42 years now, as we've just really relied on the Lord and worked individually at drawing closer to him, it's kind of that triangle. We kind of grow closer to each other. And there is a lot that I've had to learn to just let go. There's certainly much that he's had to kind of let go in in his camp on if she would just, you know, if she could just see it this way, yeah, and you know, and and learn a lot of grace, a lot of forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um and so much about you know, we we both quote constantly, we'll probably say it three or four times, the great uh Tim Keller uh, you know, quote about you know, God's idea of marriage is so much more about making us holy than happy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and that really is we don't the music, you know, that we get fed pretty much from birth of you know, relationship, love songs, all of those, the movies, they all present this idea that you know marriage and and relationship romance, it's just ultimately you complete me. Right. And you know, and you do, and she has, but completing is is not the process, it's not the process that you think it is necessarily of completion, it's a lot more of what God has in mind with with the is amazing and and and beautiful, um, but it's also you know, working out things in us and that God is committed to doing, and um, that has for sure been our journey and our story. And the reason why we resisted, as you read in the book, writing a book for so many years, because people, you know, heard me sing I Will Be Here. They've heard me talk about Mary Beth from the very beginning of my first time I stood on stage as Stephen Curtis Chapman. I mean, I've been singing on stage since I was a kid in some form, but you know, telling about our marriage, you know, sharing and I will be here was a song that was kind of a staple early on in my career because it was on my, I guess, third album and written out of my own mom and dad's uh journey through divorce and the heartache that was for us and for me, and wrote that song for her. It's just this is my commitment to you, and as God is as as our help and our witness, this is what we want to honor in our journey together, whatever happens with the rest of it and life and career and all that. I really want this to be the you know, the the anchor of of other than my relationship with Jesus to be what God wants it to be with my wife. And so that song has been a big, you know, part of our journey. But we always knew when people heard that song, you know, they would say, You should write a book. Look, you writ you wrote the consummate, you know, the ultimate wedding song for the 90s. Yeah, you know, you gotta surely have it figured out. And we're like, no, we surely don't. Um, and we can tell you a lot of things not to do, but as far as really sharing, you know, the the seven highly effective, you know, habits of you know, well married people or the love languages or the whatever, there are plenty of those books and they're great. Yeah, and we flunk at pretty much every one of them when we read them. We're like, well, screw that up. Well, blew that. So it's like, we don't have any business writing a book about that. Yeah. Until we realized, well, we are still here. And that's been the grace of God. And we could share that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Losing To Win In Marriage
SPEAKER_00Something I love in the book is you talk about losing to win. Like sometimes you have to give things up that you hold tightly to because you're bearing with each other in love. Like you can't have every single thing about the person that you're married to be exactly what you hope. So sometimes you got to lose some of those things. Sometimes you have to lose parts of you that you thought, oh, this will be part of me forever, but then it's actually better the other way. I just felt like that was a really interesting take. And I've thought about that so many times. My husband is so much more easygoing and breezy and just like it'll work out. And I'm very much like you, where I'm like, I need a plan. I need five steps. I need to know when we're gonna do it. And he's like, it'll get done. I'm like, by me. You know that I'm gonna do it. But it just, I was thinking about being married to him. Like, I have in six years, even just noticed I have looked at things a little differently, and I have like realized, oh, it's not the end of the world. If tomorrow's not fully planned, it actually does usually end up okay. Um, I just thought that was a sweet take of sometimes marriage is about losing to win together. Um, that was really sweet of you guys. I can't remember what the example was that you gave, but something about your house and cleaning or something. Yeah, well, I'm sure that's that's yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01Of losing to win and dying to win and knowing that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, it you know, obviously this just in two sinners get married. I mean, you for some reason we've been conditioned to think, you know, the wedding's beautiful, all the parties are beautiful, everything's gonna go great. It's the you know, it's the beautiful, like Steve said, the beautiful songs, the all of that. And why why do we kid ourselves to know that two very, you know, sinful people are getting married, and I want it my way, you know, I want it my way. He wants it his way.
SPEAKER_01And um, yeah, and throw and and just just for fun, let's throw a cosmic enemy in the middle of it. Right, yeah. The fact that we there is an enemy to everything that's good and beautiful and reflects the beauty of God's heart. And okay, so marriage is the you know, quintessential kind of picture of our relationship with as the bride of Christ and all of that. So do you think that's not gonna have some attacks from the from the enemy of you know, all things good? And so you throw that into the equation, and it's like, yeah, wow, this is not, this was not in the color brochure. Yeah, you know, that I got.
SPEAKER_02And you know, you do, you just at the end of the day, I try am so grateful. You know, I'm a complicated, can be a very hard-headed woman. He's gonna go over there, amen. No, no, no, but he looks at the camera and says, No, but no, but um, but the Lord knew exactly the person that needed to come into my life to help expose some of that, help walk alongside of some of that, yeah, help be the one that I can, you know, push against. Um, and he's there. Uh and and hopefully he's you know, like likewise. Um and just to, you know, to remember that, but we don't, we forget, and then you know, we you know can momentarily think you're my enemy, not the real enemy, you know.
SPEAKER_01Oh boy, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think too, like you mentioned this earlier of just the world tells us that marriage should make us happy. And as soon as something doesn't make you happy, or as soon as it doesn't serve you anymore, you should get out of there and choose yourself or whatever, whatever the narrative is. Be your best you, be your best you, leave leave things that don't serve you. I I just think that mindset is so dangerous, and I feel like seeing marriage as something that makes us holy, it sanctifies us, changes that perspective so much. Um, something else you said in the book was you know, saying, You're not the woman I married, or you're not the man I married is actually true because life does change you and you go through things that are hard and you don't walk out the other side of things the same as you were before. Um, but it's falling in love with that person in a new way, in a new season as they're changing.
The Park Bench Myth Explained
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I thought that was really sweet. And I feel like that culminates in the image that you spell out of the perfect couple on the park bench. Um, will you talk about that image and just what you've learned about it?
SPEAKER_01That was a it was a counseling, you know, one of our early counseling sessions, I guess, with uh with a friend and and a guy who I think he actually was one that fired us at some point and said, I think I'm done with you guys because I can't do I got I've given you all I got and you're still a mess. And it's like I've done all I can do here. My work is done here. Um, but but he was talking to us at some point, because I think there is a part, certainly a part of me, um, the fixer. Um, in fact, there's a song I wrote, Unfixables, on my uh la last record that I that I did. Um, because that just that idea of there's there's just I'm so determined to try to fix if you just give me the plan, give me the workbook, and I know I'm a slow learner and and uh but I will I'm determined uh to try to figure it out and fix it. Yeah, and so many things are just not fixable um this side of heaven. And you know, we're gonna you know, you're gonna struggle with it and and strive, you know, to try to to try to make it right. Um and I think that, you know, in this whole journey between the two of us trying to fix each other, um, and then even fix ourselves and uh and recognize that you know we're we're works in progress, and that's why we are going to have to bear with one another, which we keep coming back to as kind of our ultimate, you know, thing that we as if there's a secret when people say, What's the secret? Right, you know, and you know, it's recognizing that we are in process, that you know, we're some of these things are are gonna be broken uh until heaven, can we trust uh God's grace to be enough for us in that in that journey and in that process?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think too just when you look at someone who's been together so long and you're like, man, I want exactly what they have. They look so happy, there's not a care in the world. And then realizing that every couple has those things just under their surface, that hot button issues, things that you know you could always bring up and it would start an argument. Like every couple has that, but the difference between a couple that gives up and a couple that stays together is just the choice to stay together. Um and that's what makes you happy and gives freedom. And so that I I feel like is a big takeaway from the book for me is just that perfect couple on the park bench, it doesn't actually exist, but it's just that they have chosen to be there. Um, I thought that was really sweet as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the they they always fade at the end of that scene, you know, the movie ends there. And I I remember so many times I'm like, that's so unfair, because you know, once the camera fades and they're sitting there hand in hand on the park bench, you know, holding hands, that old couple, you know, then you know the the scene fades, and but they got to get up and go home and and you know, figure out wait a minute, you forgot to, you know, what did you take care of that? And there's gonna be, you know, and and that was, yeah, that was the point of that story that was, I think, so powerful for us was you know, this this wise voice in our lives at the time, counselor that said, you know, if you really could spend a little time with that couple on the park bench that looks so perfect in that movie scene or in your mind, yeah, you know, they're they've made a choice to still be sitting there and they've made some choices to decide that they're gonna bear with each other through some things, and that means carrying a weight of disappointment, hurt, frustration.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But what am I gonna do with that? Am I gonna keep demanding that I have to have it my way? Or am I gonna be able to say, you know, for the for the greater good of what we believe is most important for for this, you know, relationship. Um, but we're I'm gonna bear with that. And even in that bearing with then, God's gonna be doing things in our life and our heart individually, but that you know, sanctifying and at work, which is so much fun. We love it.
SPEAKER_02We love being each.
SPEAKER_00We love the sanctification process, just so
Grace That Keeps You Together
SPEAKER_00much fun. Another huge just pillar of your book is the idea of grace and how we give grace, we receive grace from God, but also each other in marriage. Will you just talk about grace and how that's played a part in your marriage together?
SPEAKER_02Where do you there's need there's there's been there's been need for much, much, much grace, you know. Um certainly in in what we were just talking about, uh also we always mention you know there are times that you know you shouldn't stay. I mean we're we're not I just want to put the caveat in there that we're not yeah, you know, we're not advocating for someone to stay in a dangerous situation. But yes, of course, but um, but as far as it's grace in our relationship, as far as how we've wounded each other, how we've um just you're just not you're you know, you're just not getting me. We had one of those situations on the way down here. I was not happy with this man.
SPEAKER_00Why is it always on the way to something it happens to me too? I can gauge you.
SPEAKER_02And he goes, I sense you're frustrated. I said, I am, I'm frustrated. I am frustrated. I am frustrated. Um, but we're working on it, right? And just much grace needs to be given because a lot of times we don't um we we see what we want to see and we don't realize that they've also done this over here. And so like we're we want to be quick to um to say, you know, you didn't hear me, you missed me, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, inevitably it's like, well, yeah, I did because this over here. So we're we're learning to learning and taking two steps forward, 10 steps back on on what it looks like to to uh shower with grace first and understand that there's probably a full explanation um before all the frustration begins.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I mean we we said, I think you've already said it once, and and I have too. It's um and and we were really probably pretty reticent reason why it took us so long to write a book is that you know, when people would say, Man, what are the secrets? What are the keys? What are the, you know, because there's so many great books, and you know, we've read a lot of them and we always get really frustrated because we feel like we've kind of failed on every page. It's like I'm 20 pages in and I've already flunked, I think, every you know, little test at the end. Let's just go to a movie. Let's just go to a movie. Can we just go to a movie? We literally we were in a conference in a marriage conference early in our marriage, like we need to go to this marriage conference and we're gonna get because that's what I'm that's me. I'm the fixer, so I'm like, we'll go get fixed. I'll learn all the things I'm doing wrong and need to do better, and you'll learn all the things you're doing wrong and need to do better.
SPEAKER_02And we're just sitting there, and it was like we were in the first hour, I think, of it, and it was kind of going to be like Well, and the first problem was we know everything that they said about the guy was like me, and everything they said about the girl was like him, and so then there's that, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, yeah, it's just like I have a headache.
SPEAKER_02Can we just go to a movie and dinner?
SPEAKER_01Can we just yeah, just just kind of face all of it, forget all of this.
SPEAKER_02Those things are not good and not important, and and you know, constantly trying to you know feed your mind with really hopeful. I mean, God has create has gifted so many people with so much wisdom, but we're not them. We are, you know, by by by grace and by a lot of determination to stay in it, still in it. Yeah, and our children say that we hobble well. Yeah, yes, yeah. I love that. Yeah, that was a Caleb's.
SPEAKER_01And bear with one another in love. And that's kind of we were like, we really could have written this book maybe in one page, you know. If you want to just get the answer, you know, from the chapmans, what is the what's the you know, the one highly effective habit, key love language, whatever, you know, it's this bear with each other in love. Yeah, um, love bears all things, and that carries with it. We always say, this weight of, you know, bearing with, carrying disappointment, hurt, frustration, you're not hearing me, you're not, you know, meeting the need, you know, or whatever. But that's also what we've been invited into in a relationship with that that model that is our closest that we'll ever get on this side of heaven to what our relationship, you know, is with God and and as the bride of Christ and all of that. And so there's so much cosmic, you know, stuff going on around a marriage, it's going to require, I mean, we're fighting a real enemy that is not playing fair at any level, and we're not the enemy, and but sometimes we sure can feel that way and look that way, and so all of that seems to come back to this idea of just the grace that we have received. We have an endless supply of that, yeah. Thank Jesus. Yeah, and uh therefore, from that well that does not run dry, if we keep returning to that, we can have grace for each other. Um, and that's the only reason we're still sitting here on this couch beside each other.
SPEAKER_00And you just look so happy and cozy on this couch. So oh, I love it. Seriously, people listening, you need to read still here. It's so good. Um, so this podcast called In the Middle
Grandkids Show Hope And Slowing Down
SPEAKER_00of It. What are some things that you're in the middle of right now in in your life? Like your, I know your grandparents, and oh man.
SPEAKER_02We are we we are in the middle of that. We all we are people usually get really frustrated when we say this because all of our children live within four miles of us. So we it's you know, obviously our our boys are in music, so they stayed. Our daughter stayed, um, married a Franklin boy, and um, so she's here, and then our two youngest are back from college, so they're they're both here, and um, so all seven of our grandbabies live like within spitting different different distance. And um, and so we're in the middle of that. There, that's a lot of a lot of action happening around we call it Camp Grammy. Um, we did no and some days can we have a couple of years.
SPEAKER_01We wouldn't have closed Camp Grammy. Can we close it for Camera? Closed verb repairs.
SPEAKER_02She's like, Yeah, Monday is over. Our grandbabies are now 14 down to well, all of them are four except for one. All of them are fourteen down to seven. There's six of them. So boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then we call the then there's a two-year-old who we call the mascot caboose. The mascot jack. And um, and so there it's it's a lot of energy. We call it the Chapman, Chapman energy. And so we're in the middle of that. We're in the middle of trying to figure out what slowing down looks like. Um, we don't slow down very well, we don't do that well. And um, and but I'm sure we're trying I'm getting I'm getting trying to learn. Yeah, trying to learn how to do some things a little differently, a little more intentional, trying to travel with him a little bit now that I can. Um yeah, trying to figure out all things in the middle of show hope. Um, you know, we help a lot of families with adoptions and and the their journey that they're on um with raising kiddos um from different places. And um, and so yeah, just in the middle of still trying to, he's just trying to figure out music, what's next, you know, there and yeah, yeah. So all of the things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's you know, in enjoying the season that that we are uh in uh because it's a amazing but beautiful season. It's change there is change, you know, for sure going on.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and uh trying to navigate that and you know, accept and be really good with it and trust God with it, but also know that you still have wind in the sails and you know, gas in the tank, as they say, uh for for things that matter most. And you know, that's really our prayer and hope. And doing this book was kind of part of us we again resisted because you know, we we want to pass on, you know, the hard fought for wisdom that God has given us and and and hopes that that will encourage people. But you know, you know uh you've you've done a lot of different things. There are m amazing opportunities always around us in this world that's broken and needs truth and hope spoken into it, and you know, songs sung and good things done, um, you know, with show hope and all of those things. But then how do we steward this season of life in a way that just am able to rest and you know enjoy this season, but still be about the things that we feel like God has given us the opportunity to do. So um we're just trying to figure it out, figure that out together.
SPEAKER_00Um,
Mentoring Younger Artists Through The Opry
SPEAKER_00you just did a song with one of our very best friends, Caleb from Caleb and John. He was the best man in our wedding. You serious? My husband's very best friend amongst the wheel. No way, yes, and my husband was the best man in his wedding as well. And so he was so excited to do that song with you. He called Jason, he was like, You're never gonna guess who's doing a song with us, Stephen Curtis Happen. Because you are his hero. Like, I'm sure he told you, but just like from the time we met Caleb when we were in college and he had this long ponytail, and he was coming fresh from uh, I don't know, where I think Florida or something, he was like, I want to be Stephen Curtis Chapman. Like he just was so dangerous. And anyways, I love the song that you did with them and just so sweet. I was like, man, that is such an answer to prayer for him. And I love that Stephen Curtis Chapman is still doing features with the youngins, you know, like there's even you're in there writing the cool songs.
SPEAKER_01If you guys, there's a lot cooler, you know, hip hipper, younger, uh, snazzier people you can do this with. But I was very honored that they uh that that they asked me, and they're just the sweetest guys, both those guys. I love the time I spent with them. And then you know, we got to do the Opry together. I got to bring them out and do uh do the song, that song we wrote together, and then get to invite them to come do their own debut night on the Opry, which I think they're still trying to figure out a time because I want to be there for that. Yeah, it was really sweet seeing their family.
SPEAKER_02Oh my goodness. You know, his I think his dad and mom had come and just really sweet.
SPEAKER_00His parents are so sweet and precious, and oh my goodness, just so cool. So cool to get to be at a point in your career where you can kind of lend your voice and like just your legacy to younger artists and kind of help show them the way. Like that's a really cool place for you to be in, I feel like.
SPEAKER_01That is a sweet season, I feel like that Mary Beth referenced it earlier with with uh you know the Opry and kind of being uh sort of a mentor. I was you know talking to uh an Opry brother uh you know today for a little bit, and we're working on some music, and he's country guy, uh, but has a heart to do Christian music, gospel music, and so we've been writing some songs and um and that has been a sweet season for you know for me and and even for us, I think inadvertently it was part of why my wife so felt so passionately, maybe about me, you know, being a member of that community, because um, as it's sort of unfolded, it's a whole lot more about just the relationships that I get to be involved in, you know, aside. I mean, there's music kind of woven in and out of it, but just love it on the people there and and I mean gosh, you know, praying for George Gruen. I mean, Gruen guitars, you know, he's there almost every time and just getting a telling I'm praying for him and you know, things like that that I never would have imagined um the opportunity to just be around and and be with those folks. And so it's been a it's been a sweet, sweet gift.
SPEAKER_00Very
Absolutely Not Heights Snakes And Fear
SPEAKER_00cool. Well, to end the podcast, we're gonna end with a little a little game. You can indulge me in the game.
SPEAKER_01Oh boy, my wife loves games, she's better at games than I am.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so I have this wheel. Ooh, the wheel. One of you, whichever one you want, is gonna spin it, it's gonna land on a topic, and we're gonna talk about it for like three minutes to end the podcast.
SPEAKER_01All right, okay. You you spin away, my love. See if you how how it how they go.
SPEAKER_00You tell me what it lands on.
SPEAKER_01Childhood memory. Yeah, yes. Oh, you know what though? If you look at it from this angle, it is absolutely not.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you guys, if you'll do absolutely not. Oh, yeah. Okay, absolutely not is an anti-bucket list item. It's anti-bucket list.
SPEAKER_01Right on the verge. I know what Steve's anti-bucket list is.
SPEAKER_00What is your absolutely not a bucket list?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely not. Ooh, this is like this is like uh the not so newly weighed game. You answer for me, and then it'll tell you if you're gonna be able to do it too.
SPEAKER_02His absolutely not is he will not ever do anything that requires heights. Exactly what I was thinking. He is not, he is not. Not gonna go to the top of the Eiffel Tower. He is not gonna jump out of an airplane for sure. You're not gonna sweat and even you know how you start talking about stuff and it shows up in your algorithm. Yep. Like he starts because he'll talk about it, then he starts getting these crazy videos of people walking on top of mountains and engaged on the Empire State Building.
SPEAKER_01Why do I know about that? So I'll have nightmares about it. That's why. That's the only reason why. Because it shows up on my phone. I pick my phone. I'm just like, I don't want to see that. Now I can't sleep. So it is so weird. I do have a kind of a freak. Uh I just I just do not like heights. And it's getting not better as I get older.
SPEAKER_00Have you seen that Netflix special of the guy who free soloed on the side of a building? I made my palms worse. And it's like, why? Why did I do that? Why did he do it? And then now why am I watching it?
SPEAKER_01Why am I even watching this? Yes. So my wife's absolutely not our snakes. I will she absolutely won't even walk in the reptile, you know, where they're all behind like the cages at the end. You never know. You know, you never know. One got out, she's gonna be.
SPEAKER_02And here's the weird thing. I can do turtles, I can do lizards. I can do things with legs stuck on them. It's a and it doesn't matter. These I'm sorry, snake lovers, but when you go, don't gill it, it's a good one. I'm like, no, there are snakes. Say it with me, it's a dead snake. We're gonna be going to get hate mail now.
SPEAKER_01Whoever's gonna be coming after you now. But whatever read up. It's like a replica, it's a thing. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02It's a real it's a real thing. Like I get like she does.
SPEAKER_01Like, well, that's how I explained heights. So this is a fun story.
SPEAKER_02It's a definite thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know you're doing great. We were doing a we did a cruise that we hosted, but before we did it, they took us on kind of a we're gonna explore it and see all the things about it so you can talk about it. So, and then we'll invite people to come join us on an Alaskan cruise. And they have a thing that all I can remember was called the it was the wheel of death. No, it was the death star. It was not that it's called the Death Star. They call it the North Star, but it was actually the Dirt Wheeler.
SPEAKER_02And it rises up over the cruise ship and kind of goes out over the ocean. It's like a glass.
SPEAKER_01And you're in it, and it rises up, and you're supposed to just enjoy this beautiful bigger. And they they said, Hey, we want to get you on this, they're gonna give you a free ride, go up and it's just as a cruise ship is going, and they're gonna they're gonna drift you out over the water. Well, you normally have to pay extra for it. Yes, I know, but you normally have to pay extra if you're on the cruise, it's not free. You have to like pay it extra upcharge. That's why they wanted us to do it, because they wanted to upsell the deal. Okay, sorry. But it's just the truth. Hurts. So they were trying to get us to do this thing, and my wife's over there, like, oh, sure, this will be fun. And then our friends with us, Jeff and Jan Moore, were like, yeah, this will be fun. And I'm over there going, this will be not fun. Not fun, not fun, not fun. Oh no. So we get in this little glass bubble and it raises up, and then it goes out over the water, and it's not even that high, but it's high enough to be.
SPEAKER_00I would not like that either.
SPEAKER_01So I'm in this thing, and and I'm just holding I've gripped death grip on the bar, and they're all like, cameras, cameras. Like, isn't this awesome? Encourage people, they want to come do this. Encourage, and she looks over at me and there is a tear, literally. Yeah, he was it was bad. And I because I'm feeling like that. Yeah, see, this is it. She's laughing.
SPEAKER_02I'm trying, she's laughing. It was not. I was like, We need counsel. Oh no, like he's a counselor.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I finally, I finally just said to her, I am trying so hard because there's a camera to not not show the absolute terror that's going on in my mind, in my heart right now, and I know it's unreasonable. I know this thing's not gonna fall. I can tell myself all those things, right? But I said, Imagine for just a moment that very harmless, completely innocent little nice snakes were released in here on the floor and just kind of a few of them slithering around, and everybody's going, There's no way those snakes will bite you. They don't, they're not the biting kind, they're just here to hang out. I said, How would you be doing right now? And she was like, I completely get it. Oh she understood. And I said, That's it, that it's not reasonable, but it is real. So there you go.
SPEAKER_00Those are your absolutely knots. I love it.
SPEAKER_01You know, absolutely not the glass ball on the cruise ship.
SPEAKER_00Good to know. Thank
Closing Thanks And Next Steps
SPEAKER_00you guys so much for doing this. It is so sweet to just sit with you and hear your wisdom and what you're in the middle of, and I'm just so grateful. So thank you for being part of this today. Thank you for having us again. Thank you, Hannah.
